Avon Flyers Forum Home - General aviation question

Fingers YaBB Moderator I still got all five! Offline Forum User LastOn: Today Join: Mar 22^nd, 2010 Posts: 3,091 Reputation: 0 Dartmouth Gender: Zodiac sign: Awards: 3 Mood:	General aviation question Jul 18^th, 2012 at 8:18am With apologies to Mr. Gorean, can anyone tell me why early wings were undercambered??
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Davy Crockett

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Re: General aviation question
Reply #1 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 11:39am

I got this. Fingers, it's because in the early days camber was very very expensive and could only be mined in the far east. Until the advent of modern shipping practices, it would often take several horse-drawn (and sometime elephant-drawn) carriages to transport even the smallest amounts of camber, thus inflating the market price for camber globally.

I also should add, in recent times, scientists have been able to create synthetic camber in labs. While this process is still in it's infancy, it does promise to bring prices down to the point where every household, aviators or not, will be able to afford near endless amounts of camber.

Hope that clears things up.

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« Last Edit: Jul 18^th, 2012 at 11:41am by Davy Crockett »

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Fingers YaBB Moderator I still got all five! Offline Forum User LastOn: Today Join: Mar 22^nd, 2010 Posts: 3,091 Reputation: 0 Dartmouth Gender: Zodiac sign: Awards: 3 Mood:	Re: General aviation question Reply #2 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 12:06pm Well snap my fingers (!) that would be correct. And of course automobiles require camber (and castor) putting another demand on the product. Thanks Davy, appreciate the help..
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Davy Crockett Aerobatic Pilot Nextstump Killer Offline Yes I still fly... LastOn: May 13^th, 2015 Join: Dec 9^th, 2011 Posts: 304 Reputation: 0 Halifax, NS Gender: Zodiac sign: Awards: 1 Mood:	Re: General aviation question Reply #3 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 12:29pm Well Fingers... That's not 100% correct. Automotive camber and aeronautic camber have a slightly different chemical composition. While they are somewhat interchangeable, it's not really recommended that you replace one with another for any real lengths of time.
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Fingers YaBB Moderator I still got all five! Offline Forum User LastOn: Today Join: Mar 22^nd, 2010 Posts: 3,091 Reputation: 0 Dartmouth Gender: Zodiac sign: Awards: 3 Mood:	Re: General aviation question Reply #4 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 1:18pm Got that. Guess I'd assumed that the two cambers were merely different stages in the same processing, much like, say, naptha and AvGas, so would put quite a combined demand on the supply. Always great to have an Xspurt on hand..
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Re: General aviation question
Reply #5 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 2:15pm

Hey Davey: Does Whitey know your tittering away valuable company time while at work. No wonder private companies charge so much for their product. Your as bad as union workers!!! Oh, hold on, I'm a union worker. Scratch that one. Anyway, since I'm retiring and now have to watch my pennies, I will be keeping a close eye on your work ethics and report any anomalies to Mr Whitehead. Grin

Bruce

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>>>>Bruce<<<<

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Fingers YaBB Moderator I still got all five! Offline Forum User LastOn: Today Join: Mar 22^nd, 2010 Posts: 3,091 Reputation: 0 Dartmouth Gender: Zodiac sign: Awards: 3 Mood:	Re: General aviation question Reply #6 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 2:58pm Quote: anomalies hmmm, aren't they little single cell life forms?
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waverider

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Re: General aviation question
Reply #7 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 4:20pm

copying birds
used the flying wires to brace the structure which compensated for the lack of chordwise and spanwise stiffness
when they needed to hang things from wings this no longer worked
second moment EI where E is youngs modulus =E* b*dcubed upon 12; b=bredth, d= depth. more depth in a structure mean more stiffness
hence 2x10 beams holding your floor up in your house are better than 2*8s = = less floor bounce
Cool

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Yak Man Club Member Galactic Twinkie Jet Pilot Extraordinaire Offline Forum User LastOn: Yesterday Join: Mar 23^rd, 2010 Posts: 1,000 Reputation: 0 Gender: Zodiac sign: Awards: 5 Mood:	Re: General aviation question Reply #8 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 4:30pm Well that clears it up nicely!
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Glen Club Member Offline Forum User LastOn: Yesterday Join: Aug 5^th, 2011 Posts: 442 Reputation: 2 Sackville Gender: Zodiac sign: Awards: 2 Mood:	Re: General aviation question Reply #9 - Jul 18^th, 2012 at 4:35pm I like Davey's answer better
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argus Trainer Box Offline Forum User LastOn: Apr 25^th, 2015 Join: Jan 29^th, 2012 Posts: 42 Reputation: 0 Scott's Point, Halifax Co, NS Gender: Zodiac sign: Mood:	Re: General aviation question Reply #10 - Jul 19^th, 2012 at 9:08am Talking of castor, automotive castor and aeronautic castor have a somewhat larger difference chemical wise. They are/were not interchangable. If constipated , aeronautic castor was prefered.
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Re: General aviation question
Reply #11 - Jul 19^th, 2012 at 10:04am

waverider wrote on Jul 18^th, 2012 at 4:20pm:

copying birds
used the flying wires to brace the structure which compensated for the lack of chordwise and spanwise stiffness
when they needed to hang things from wings this no longer worked
second moment EI where E is youngs modulus =E* b*dcubed upon 12; b=bredth, d= depth. more depth in a structure mean more stiffness
hence 2x10 beams holding your floor up in your house are better than 2*8s = = less floor bounce
Cool

but 2x10 beams make lousy wing spars and or ribs Huh

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« Last Edit: Jul 19^th, 2012 at 2:49pm by Fingers »

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Re: General aviation question
Reply #12 - Jul 19^th, 2012 at 10:07am

argus wrote on Jul 19^th, 2012 at 9:08am:

Talking of castor, automotive castor and aeronautic castor have a somewhat larger difference chemical wise. They are/were not interchangable.
If constipated Angry

, aeronautic castor was prefered. Shocked

and I've read (1 yes I know how to read 2 no, not in the book about DH) that WWI pilots had NO problems with constipation because they were constantly ingesting a fine spray of castor (the aeronautic kind) from their engines.... Undecided

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JackDD Club Member Offline Forum User LastOn: Today Join: Apr 25^th, 2010 Posts: 541 Reputation: 0 Gender: Awards: 2 Mood:	Re: General aviation question Reply #13 - Jul 19^th, 2012 at 10:14am I know, Castor tastes awfull
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Fingers YaBB Moderator I still got all five! Offline Forum User LastOn: Today Join: Mar 22^nd, 2010 Posts: 3,091 Reputation: 0 Dartmouth Gender: Zodiac sign: Awards: 3 Mood:	Re: General aviation question Reply #14 - Jul 19^th, 2012 at 10:15am auto castor........and aeronautic caster
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Yak Man Club Member Galactic Twinkie Jet Pilot Extraordinaire Offline Forum User LastOn: Yesterday Join: Mar 23^rd, 2010 Posts: 1,000 Reputation: 0 Gender: Zodiac sign: Awards: 5 Mood:	Re: General aviation question Reply #15 - Jul 19^th, 2012 at 5:22pm From two senseless statements however a miracle can come out and an interesting thought can arise. Indeed, whatever the numbers put out by Fitch, the logic they seem to generate is one that the divide between an explosion and solvency is: lower spreads and higher growth.
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Fingers YaBB Moderator I still got all five! Offline Forum User LastOn: Today Join: Mar 22^nd, 2010 Posts: 3,091 Reputation: 0 Dartmouth Gender: Zodiac sign: Awards: 3 Mood:	Re: General aviation question Reply #16 - Jul 19^th, 2012 at 7:03pm absolutely nailed it... couldn't have said it better - whatever it is
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administrator Yabb Administrator Rocker 148 !! Offline Zoom Zoom!! LastOn: Jan 19^th, 2024 Join: Apr 11^th, 2009 Posts: 850 Reputation: 0 Windsor, Nova Scotia Gender: Zodiac sign: Awards: 2 Mood:	Re: General aviation question Reply #17 - Jul 19^th, 2012 at 8:06pm Don't worry Sandy. Al will be alright. He was just doping his new plane tonight and got a little high off the fumes. Bruce
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Glen Club Member Offline Forum User LastOn: Yesterday Join: Aug 5^th, 2011 Posts: 442 Reputation: 2 Sackville Gender: Zodiac sign: Awards: 2 Mood:	Re: General aviation question Reply #18 - Jul 19^th, 2012 at 10:15pm Al, have you been going to one of those pyramid scheme seminars again ?
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Fingers YaBB Moderator I still got all five! Offline Forum User LastOn: Today Join: Mar 22^nd, 2010 Posts: 3,091 Reputation: 0 Dartmouth Gender: Zodiac sign: Awards: 3 Mood:	Re: General aviation question Reply #19 - Jul 20^th, 2012 at 11:29am back to my original question, having beat the castor and camber all to death.... why are so many wings on the very early planes concave or under cambered or bent - shup Davey
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Fingers YaBB Moderator I still got all five! Offline Forum User LastOn: Today Join: Mar 22^nd, 2010 Posts: 3,091 Reputation: 0 Dartmouth Gender: Zodiac sign: Awards: 3 Mood:	Re: General aviation question Reply #20 - Jul 23^rd, 2012 at 2:33pm no sperts on hand eh? Neither present or X
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